What IR cameras?
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jason12345 - Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 pm
What IR cameras?
Hello, today my tires were slashed for the second time in 4 weeks. I would like to set up some basic surveillance with Vitamin d. I was thinking the basic package along with 2 wireless Ir cams that can serve some decent security at about 75 feet in the night. Also would i need something along with the cameras? like reciver or something? I don't have a huge budget, so i would like to keep this on the cheaper side if possible, and would like to buy from amazon.com . Thank you guys very much, i would usually try and be more independent and find out by my self, but i don't have the time or money to wait for the tires, or something worse to happen again.
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saintjohnny - Posts: 30
- Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:38 am
Re: What IR cameras?
Sorry to hear that cowards who are too afraid to face you direct have taken to destroying your property. Are you still looking for a camera setup? I had some questions which would help us determine what you need:
***Edit: sorry you already said you wanted wireless but please read everything I've already mentioned since battery powered can be annoying to maintain. Otherwise something like this:
1. Would you want it to be a somewhat permanent setup where the cameras are powered through a cable, or would you want them to be battery powered so it could be truly wireless? (Battery powered would be a pain to keep recharging/replacing every night but if you can't run cables it would be your only option).
2. Would the camera be mounted indoors or outdoors? If you are going IR, it would have to be outdoor because the IR reflects in a window and blinds the camera from it's own light. I can link you to some very cheap outdoor rated IR cameras which may require a USB adapter to plug into your computer.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage. ... ies&ks=960 may work for you and you should be able to use a USB adapter (separate purchase I linked) since they seem to have RCA plugs on the camera receiver. These cameras I believe have power plugs or you can also do a 9volt battery powering option for "true" wireless. The only issue is a 2 in 1 camera system may have 2 video inputs and 1 video output plug which might get confusing to use with vitamin D or any other software since the cameras may be made to "split" screen your TV and could be a non-standard resolution or have black fill ins, but if it's video on the screen I wouldn't be surprised if it just worked anyways with vitamin D.
You may want to go with a single wireless camera solution such as:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Lorex+-+Ind ... &cp=1&lp=2
I'd recommend you buy from bestbuy that way if the camera isn't what you expected you could return it quickly at the store without having to mail it back. I wouldn't assume all wireless cameras support battery power by default without rigging up something custom so pay attention to how you will be powering them.
or
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Night+Owl+- ... &cp=1&lp=1
Should do what you need, it gets it's power and video all through the same Siamese (2 cables in one) cable that you can run 60' from your computer and these cameras work great with the http://www.amazon.com/KWorld-Expert-Vid ... B000234SMQ USB adapter which I personally have used and I noticed that it was mentioned in the vitamin D webpage somewhere. It simply converts the cameras BNC plug with an RCA adapter, plug into usb you can plug into your computer. Windows 7 should find the drivers otherwise it comes with drivers and once you install them vitamin D will see it as USB camera or something like that. Cameras in the 50-150 dollar range really aren't that great for facial recognition but if you have it close up with 10-20 feet you should be able to make them out. The night vision cameras quality for day vision is sometimes horrible but like I said if you get it at bestbuy.com and it doesn't work for you, you can return it very quickly. You can also buy extension cable if you want to go more than 60 feet. Again I can't stress enough that the quality of most cameras are not that great expecially in night vision so try to get the camera close and do some tests with yourself walking in front of it (without being too obvious of course).
You can get any of the products I linked through amazon of course just by searching their model number.
***Edit: sorry you already said you wanted wireless but please read everything I've already mentioned since battery powered can be annoying to maintain. Otherwise something like this:
1. Would you want it to be a somewhat permanent setup where the cameras are powered through a cable, or would you want them to be battery powered so it could be truly wireless? (Battery powered would be a pain to keep recharging/replacing every night but if you can't run cables it would be your only option).
2. Would the camera be mounted indoors or outdoors? If you are going IR, it would have to be outdoor because the IR reflects in a window and blinds the camera from it's own light. I can link you to some very cheap outdoor rated IR cameras which may require a USB adapter to plug into your computer.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage. ... ies&ks=960 may work for you and you should be able to use a USB adapter (separate purchase I linked) since they seem to have RCA plugs on the camera receiver. These cameras I believe have power plugs or you can also do a 9volt battery powering option for "true" wireless. The only issue is a 2 in 1 camera system may have 2 video inputs and 1 video output plug which might get confusing to use with vitamin D or any other software since the cameras may be made to "split" screen your TV and could be a non-standard resolution or have black fill ins, but if it's video on the screen I wouldn't be surprised if it just worked anyways with vitamin D.
You may want to go with a single wireless camera solution such as:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Lorex+-+Ind ... &cp=1&lp=2
I'd recommend you buy from bestbuy that way if the camera isn't what you expected you could return it quickly at the store without having to mail it back. I wouldn't assume all wireless cameras support battery power by default without rigging up something custom so pay attention to how you will be powering them.
or
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Night+Owl+- ... &cp=1&lp=1
Should do what you need, it gets it's power and video all through the same Siamese (2 cables in one) cable that you can run 60' from your computer and these cameras work great with the http://www.amazon.com/KWorld-Expert-Vid ... B000234SMQ USB adapter which I personally have used and I noticed that it was mentioned in the vitamin D webpage somewhere. It simply converts the cameras BNC plug with an RCA adapter, plug into usb you can plug into your computer. Windows 7 should find the drivers otherwise it comes with drivers and once you install them vitamin D will see it as USB camera or something like that. Cameras in the 50-150 dollar range really aren't that great for facial recognition but if you have it close up with 10-20 feet you should be able to make them out. The night vision cameras quality for day vision is sometimes horrible but like I said if you get it at bestbuy.com and it doesn't work for you, you can return it very quickly. You can also buy extension cable if you want to go more than 60 feet. Again I can't stress enough that the quality of most cameras are not that great expecially in night vision so try to get the camera close and do some tests with yourself walking in front of it (without being too obvious of course).
You can get any of the products I linked through amazon of course just by searching their model number.
jason12345 wrote:Hello, today my tires were slashed for the second time in 4 weeks. I would like to set up some basic surveillance with Vitamin d. I was thinking the basic package along with 2 wireless Ir cams that can serve some decent security at about 75 feet in the night. Also would i need something along with the cameras? like reciver or something? I don't have a huge budget, so i would like to keep this on the cheaper side if possible, and would like to buy from amazon.com . Thank you guys very much, i would usually try and be more independent and find out by my self, but i don't have the time or money to wait for the tires, or something worse to happen again.
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Semper Vaporo - Posts: 331
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:51 am
Re: What IR cameras?
I don't have any specific camera recommentations, but agreee with most of what St. Johnny has written about the problems you are faced with.
The idea of wireless has a lot of attraction, until you realise that the cameras need power and that usually means wires to get enough to run the cameras. Battery power can work, but either the batteries don't last very long or the wireless range is severely limited (or both!) I have one X-10 camera that will run 8 to 12 hours on 4 AA batteries, but the effective distance is about 50 ft when the batteries are fresh and barely 3 or 4 ft when after a few hours, and nothing metal or moist (plants, bushes, trees or animal [or human] bodies) between the camera and the receiver.
There are times when external power is available and wireless can get the signal to the computer without the need to run signal wires. I think the best cameras in that situation would be Netcams using WiFi, though there are cameras availalbe that use a different signal method (usually proprietary to the manufacturer of the camera, so you cannot add more cameras unless they are from the same manufacturer and then there is the worry of getting additional cameras or replacements a few years later). But even WiFi has distance limitations as well as possible bandwidth problems if there are other WiFi systems in neighboring houses that are on the same channel/frequency (you may need to set your receiver to a specific channel that is not being used by other WiFi systems in the area).
If you have to run wires to the camera to get power, then you might as well run signal wires too. To reduce the number of wires you need to run, you can get POE (Power Over Ethernet) cameras where the power is supplied through the signal wires, so you only have to run one cable to the camera.
If you want to go cheap, you can use a USB camera. But USB is usually limited to only a few feet between the camera and the computer USB port. Although, you can also get extension cables for USB that will allow distances up to 60 ft (in five individual 12 ft cables in series). (I have no problem running one USB cam via 3 of these cables, but have not tried 5.) Some also have a power supply that can be attached at the camera end of the cable, but that would require a power source to connect the supply to) which can extend the distance a bit further. And USB cameras are usually very poor in low light conditions, even with IR lights on it.
Another problem I see with your particular needs is the distance the cameras are going to be looking. 75 ft is a long way. Most surveillance cameras seem to be a wide angle view and at 75 ft, you won't have much detail. Either get the camera closer to the area you want to watch or get a camera with a telephoto lens that you can adjust for optimum view... Get the car and only a few feet on each side to fill the view.
Also, 75 ft is a long way for the IR light to be valid for viewing. You need a camera that is good in very low light (LUX number in the much less than 1 range).
Another problem with low light is that the camera will extend the shutter time and this produces severe blurring of anything in motion.
Best of luck with your surveillance system and I hope that even the presence of the cameras may deter the vandal from the stupid deed, and if not, the catch the idiot and press charges to the fullest extent of the law.
The idea of wireless has a lot of attraction, until you realise that the cameras need power and that usually means wires to get enough to run the cameras. Battery power can work, but either the batteries don't last very long or the wireless range is severely limited (or both!) I have one X-10 camera that will run 8 to 12 hours on 4 AA batteries, but the effective distance is about 50 ft when the batteries are fresh and barely 3 or 4 ft when after a few hours, and nothing metal or moist (plants, bushes, trees or animal [or human] bodies) between the camera and the receiver.
There are times when external power is available and wireless can get the signal to the computer without the need to run signal wires. I think the best cameras in that situation would be Netcams using WiFi, though there are cameras availalbe that use a different signal method (usually proprietary to the manufacturer of the camera, so you cannot add more cameras unless they are from the same manufacturer and then there is the worry of getting additional cameras or replacements a few years later). But even WiFi has distance limitations as well as possible bandwidth problems if there are other WiFi systems in neighboring houses that are on the same channel/frequency (you may need to set your receiver to a specific channel that is not being used by other WiFi systems in the area).
If you have to run wires to the camera to get power, then you might as well run signal wires too. To reduce the number of wires you need to run, you can get POE (Power Over Ethernet) cameras where the power is supplied through the signal wires, so you only have to run one cable to the camera.
If you want to go cheap, you can use a USB camera. But USB is usually limited to only a few feet between the camera and the computer USB port. Although, you can also get extension cables for USB that will allow distances up to 60 ft (in five individual 12 ft cables in series). (I have no problem running one USB cam via 3 of these cables, but have not tried 5.) Some also have a power supply that can be attached at the camera end of the cable, but that would require a power source to connect the supply to) which can extend the distance a bit further. And USB cameras are usually very poor in low light conditions, even with IR lights on it.
Another problem I see with your particular needs is the distance the cameras are going to be looking. 75 ft is a long way. Most surveillance cameras seem to be a wide angle view and at 75 ft, you won't have much detail. Either get the camera closer to the area you want to watch or get a camera with a telephoto lens that you can adjust for optimum view... Get the car and only a few feet on each side to fill the view.
Also, 75 ft is a long way for the IR light to be valid for viewing. You need a camera that is good in very low light (LUX number in the much less than 1 range).
Another problem with low light is that the camera will extend the shutter time and this produces severe blurring of anything in motion.
Best of luck with your surveillance system and I hope that even the presence of the cameras may deter the vandal from the stupid deed, and if not, the catch the idiot and press charges to the fullest extent of the law.
Semper Vaporo,
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jason12345 - Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Re: What IR cameras?
I can use external power, just cant run a usb to my computer. Also will a motion detector floodlight effect the quality, from the rapid amount of light change? Thank you guys very much
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jason12345 - Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Re: What IR cameras?
Now im thinking 2 Higher quality wireless Cameras.. Must be under 200 on Amazon
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Semper Vaporo - Posts: 331
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:51 am
Re: What IR cameras?
I have one camera that faces an area covered by a motion activated flood light (twin bulb). When the light turns on the camera takes a second or two to adjust to the extreme brightness and another 3 or 4 seconds to finish/settle the adjustment.
Caught a neighbor one night chasing his cat and his reaction to the light coming on was much delayed compared to the camera adjustment (quite funny to see him jump and look back at the house to see if someone was watching, but the camera was nearly done with its settling on a brightness level by the time he jumped!
).
I also spent some time using Google Earth to measure the distances and field of view of a couple of my cameras that view the outside.
One is an HP 3100 webcam (USB) and appears to have a field of view of about 60 degrees. I measured out 75 ft at the extreme edges of the field of view and the distance between those points is about 73 ft wide.
Another camera is a TrendNET TV-IP400W (Wireless Netcam, no longer manufactured) and I did the same measurements with it. The field of view seems to be around 37 degrees and at 75 ft from the camera along the edges of the field of view is a distance of about 52 ft.
I suppose I could verify those numbers with some trig, but it is late and I was never all that good at trig.
But maybe it will give you some ideas of what you need to be looking for or maybe you could do some calculating to determine what camera lens you need. I believe that at 75 ft you are not going to get much detail to recognize faces and such.
And remember, contrary to what you see them do on the Crime Scene TV programs, once the image is captured at some resolution, you cannot enhance the image in a digital zoom to recognize faces or eye color or see a zit on the perp's face. If a face is only a 4x4 pixel area (16 pixels total) if you double the zoom level 6 times, you still only have 16 big square blocks of solid colors, not 1024 tiny pixels of detail. Zooming in via a telephoto lens will increase the size of objects in the saved digital image, providing detail, but the field of view is correspondingly reduced.
Caught a neighbor one night chasing his cat and his reaction to the light coming on was much delayed compared to the camera adjustment (quite funny to see him jump and look back at the house to see if someone was watching, but the camera was nearly done with its settling on a brightness level by the time he jumped!
).I also spent some time using Google Earth to measure the distances and field of view of a couple of my cameras that view the outside.
One is an HP 3100 webcam (USB) and appears to have a field of view of about 60 degrees. I measured out 75 ft at the extreme edges of the field of view and the distance between those points is about 73 ft wide.
Another camera is a TrendNET TV-IP400W (Wireless Netcam, no longer manufactured) and I did the same measurements with it. The field of view seems to be around 37 degrees and at 75 ft from the camera along the edges of the field of view is a distance of about 52 ft.
I suppose I could verify those numbers with some trig, but it is late and I was never all that good at trig.
But maybe it will give you some ideas of what you need to be looking for or maybe you could do some calculating to determine what camera lens you need. I believe that at 75 ft you are not going to get much detail to recognize faces and such.And remember, contrary to what you see them do on the Crime Scene TV programs, once the image is captured at some resolution, you cannot enhance the image in a digital zoom to recognize faces or eye color or see a zit on the perp's face. If a face is only a 4x4 pixel area (16 pixels total) if you double the zoom level 6 times, you still only have 16 big square blocks of solid colors, not 1024 tiny pixels of detail. Zooming in via a telephoto lens will increase the size of objects in the saved digital image, providing detail, but the field of view is correspondingly reduced.
Semper Vaporo,
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jason12345 - Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Re: What IR cameras?
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2701AC1-I ... _pr_sims_t
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2110-Wire ... ex++LW2201
http://www.amazon.com/Agasio-A602W-Auto ... ds=FI8905W
http://www.amazon.com/Foscam-FI8905W-Ou ... ds=FI8905W
Will any of those work, Without alot of trouble with Vit d? I really dont want to drill through the wall to mount a wired one, but if i do Whats my best option?
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2110-Wire ... ex++LW2201
http://www.amazon.com/Agasio-A602W-Auto ... ds=FI8905W
http://www.amazon.com/Foscam-FI8905W-Ou ... ds=FI8905W
Will any of those work, Without alot of trouble with Vit d? I really dont want to drill through the wall to mount a wired one, but if i do Whats my best option?
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Semper Vaporo - Posts: 331
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:51 am
Re: What IR cameras?
hmmm... your links to cameras drives another point home... Looking that first one:
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2701AC1-I ... _pr_sims_t
I am not certain if it is a WiFi wireless camera or a proprietary type of wireless. The term "wireless" just means it transmits the data using radio waves, not that it is compatible with a computer wireless network (which sometimes is indicated by calling them "IP" or "Network" cams). From what I read of this one, it is an "add on" camera for a specific system that comes with 2 cameras but can handle 4 total. I see no words that say anything similar to them being IP cams.
Same thing about this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2110-Wire ... ex++LW2201
It says the micro-receiver plugs directly into a DVR or TV or Monitor. No indication of plugging into a PC port of any kind.
There are adapters that will take the video signal from the receiver (that normally goes to the DVR) and converts it to a USB signal for attaching to the PC. But that is more dollars spent.
This next one does talk about IP use (but not because the enclosure has a model number that starts with "IP"!):
http://www.amazon.com/Agasio-A602W-Auto ... ds=FI8905W
The text indicates that it can connect to your computer network and that means it can probably work with VDV. Note that it has capabilities built-in for motion detection and sending e-mails when motion is detected. Whether its built-in functions are better or worse than VDV is unknown to me. I also don't know how well or how much data it will retain internally, which is something that we do know VDV will do for you (you can keep weeks of data on the PC harddrive, depending on the size of the drive). I do question the resolution for the distances you have said you need to view. 640x480 is not high definition and a viewing angle of 72 degrees means that something at 75 ft is going to be small and digital zooming after the fact won't help. Reviews are generally good, but one says that the viewing angle is too limited (???? 72 degrees is too limited????), but I think in your situation that would be a very good thing! (See my previous post.)
The last one also indicates it is an IP camera:
http://www.amazon.com/Foscam-FI8905W-Ou ... ds=FI8905W
I checked the list of cameras known to work with VDV and the Foscam brand is listed (models FI8910W, FI8918W), so I think this one could work also. Reviews are pretty good and the viewing angle is narrower than some others I have seen. But the wireless range seems to be a problem, which is possibly a problem with all cameras, regardless of whether they are WiFi or other system.
I also just noticed conflicting claims for the viewing angle... one line of text says it is "32 degrees", another says "22 to 40" and yet another says "42". Hmmmm... Sure gives on a good feeling about the veracity of the other claimed attributes (like useable distance for the infrared lights!). The resolution of 640x480 has the same problem as the other camera.
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2701AC1-I ... _pr_sims_t
I am not certain if it is a WiFi wireless camera or a proprietary type of wireless. The term "wireless" just means it transmits the data using radio waves, not that it is compatible with a computer wireless network (which sometimes is indicated by calling them "IP" or "Network" cams). From what I read of this one, it is an "add on" camera for a specific system that comes with 2 cameras but can handle 4 total. I see no words that say anything similar to them being IP cams.
Same thing about this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-LW2110-Wire ... ex++LW2201
It says the micro-receiver plugs directly into a DVR or TV or Monitor. No indication of plugging into a PC port of any kind.
There are adapters that will take the video signal from the receiver (that normally goes to the DVR) and converts it to a USB signal for attaching to the PC. But that is more dollars spent.
This next one does talk about IP use (but not because the enclosure has a model number that starts with "IP"!):
http://www.amazon.com/Agasio-A602W-Auto ... ds=FI8905W
The text indicates that it can connect to your computer network and that means it can probably work with VDV. Note that it has capabilities built-in for motion detection and sending e-mails when motion is detected. Whether its built-in functions are better or worse than VDV is unknown to me. I also don't know how well or how much data it will retain internally, which is something that we do know VDV will do for you (you can keep weeks of data on the PC harddrive, depending on the size of the drive). I do question the resolution for the distances you have said you need to view. 640x480 is not high definition and a viewing angle of 72 degrees means that something at 75 ft is going to be small and digital zooming after the fact won't help. Reviews are generally good, but one says that the viewing angle is too limited (???? 72 degrees is too limited????), but I think in your situation that would be a very good thing! (See my previous post.)
The last one also indicates it is an IP camera:
http://www.amazon.com/Foscam-FI8905W-Ou ... ds=FI8905W
I checked the list of cameras known to work with VDV and the Foscam brand is listed (models FI8910W, FI8918W), so I think this one could work also. Reviews are pretty good and the viewing angle is narrower than some others I have seen. But the wireless range seems to be a problem, which is possibly a problem with all cameras, regardless of whether they are WiFi or other system.
I also just noticed conflicting claims for the viewing angle... one line of text says it is "32 degrees", another says "22 to 40" and yet another says "42". Hmmmm... Sure gives on a good feeling about the veracity of the other claimed attributes (like useable distance for the infrared lights!). The resolution of 640x480 has the same problem as the other camera.
Semper Vaporo,
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Semper Vaporo - Posts: 331
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:51 am
Re: What IR cameras?
Oh yeah... if you do have to drill a hole for a wired camera, get one that lists POE (Power Over Ethernet) and you will only need to run one cable.
POE is usually a camera and a small power supply. The power supply sits between camera and the router. The power supply plugs into the AC socket and a network cable connects the router to the power supply. The camera connects to the power supply via a network cable that is however long it needs to be to reach where the camera is located. A network cable can be 100 meters (300ft) and you can get repeater amplifiers to extend that. Of course, remember that stringing the wire usually entails some circuitous route which can be considerably longer than running a clothes line from point A to point B!
POE is usually a camera and a small power supply. The power supply sits between camera and the router. The power supply plugs into the AC socket and a network cable connects the router to the power supply. The camera connects to the power supply via a network cable that is however long it needs to be to reach where the camera is located. A network cable can be 100 meters (300ft) and you can get repeater amplifiers to extend that. Of course, remember that stringing the wire usually entails some circuitous route which can be considerably longer than running a clothes line from point A to point B!
Semper Vaporo,
-
jason12345 - Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Re: What IR cameras?
Guys im a mess, i have no idea about any of this stuff... Honestly like i just need a camera.. I know somethings going to happen and i want to be prepaired, im already losing sleep over this. i cant wait any longer. I just need on good camera thats going to work and isnt going to be a pain to set up. I think im just going to buy one of those night owls and a adapter for the computer